VENDITA LIBRO “LADS 2009”
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L’ Inghilterra “under 21” attende di scendere in campo contro la Germania nella finale dei campionati europei di categoria e tutto il paese, piuttosto disabituato ai successi delle selezioni nazionali, a dispetto delle decine di trofei alzati a livello di clubs, celebra l’ eroe del momento Stuart Pearce, l’ allenatore dei giovani “white lions”. Da più parti arriva per l’ ex roccioso giocatore anche l’ investitura per la panchina maggiora quando si aprirà la successione a Fabio Capello, il quale, per ora, sta facendo benissimo e che ha già in tasca la qualificazione ai mondiali sudafricani del prossimo anno. Una maglietta, recante la scritta “Without killing anyone”, in voga tra i tifosi del Man U, sta facendo sorgere polemiche tra i supporters dei “reds” e quelli dei “Red Devils”, visto il chiaro riferimento alla tragedia dell’ “Heysel”. Nella diatriba, inoltre, si inseriscono anche i ricorrenti cori relativi alla tragedia aerea di Monaco occorsa alla squadra del Man U che , spesso, si odono in occasione degli scontri diretti, così come i riferimenti alla tragedia di Sheffield, nella quale persero, invece, la vita diverse decine di “scousers”. Il confine tra la goliardia da stadio e l’ apologia di eventi tragici si conferma, un’altra volta, davvero molto sottile.
Liverpool and Man Utd fans: officially both as bad as each other
“You can buy this T-shirt from Republik of Mancunia’s online shop, along with other merchandise that cheerily makes reference to Liverpool fans’ (admittedly shameful) involvement in the Heysel tragedy. “Withouth Killing Anyone” underpants, anyone?This crass garment sum ups everything that is wrong about the rivalry between Man Utd and Liverpool: the nasty tribalism, the one-eyed hypocrisy, the anger, the hatred, the inability to let the past go and move forward. And that goes for both sets of fans: honestly, they’re both as bad as each other. It’s an unhealthy rivalry, fuelled by bitterness and hatred.Take Scott the Red, the guy who runs Republik of Mancunia (RoM). Today, I have been having a fairly civilised email conversation with Scott about the above T-shirt, and how I think it’s rather rich for his site to sell such a shirt, while on the other hand he slags off Liverpool fans for chanting about the Munich air disaster (something I posted about yesterday, and which Scott alerted me to in the first place).Scott doesn’t see anything wrong with upbraiding Liverpool – the club and its fans – for failing to apologise for their part in the Heysel Stadium disaster (as Scott rightly says, the tragedy belongs to Juventus, if anyone), whereas I think he’s being just as bad as the Scousers who chant about Munich.
I can’t stop Liverpool or Man Utd fans chanting about Hillsborough, Munich and Heysel. All three incidents are woven into the fabric of the two clubs’ rivalry, and nothing I say can change that.
But it’s all very depressing. I’d like to think any reasonable fan would want to distance him/herself from such chants. Let it go! That’s what I said to Scott, but I guess even I can’t understand the true depth of feeling between the two sets of fans.I realise that I risk coming across as humourless, which is not something I want: there is a rich seam of pitch-black humour that benefits British football, and you could argue that the “Without Killing Anyone” chant, sung for years at Old Trafford (so Scott informs me), comes under that category. I don’t find it funny, but I’m sure plenty of United supporters enjoy singing it.I dunno though… it always feels with United and Liverpool like there is genuine malice and intention to hurt feelings. Football fans have thicker skins than most, but that doesn’t mean it’s OK to trade on the deaths of innocent people.Maybe I’m too sensitive to be a “real” football fan. Maybe I don’t know enough about Liverpool and Man Utd to comment. Maybe I should just leave both sets of fans to it…
EDITED Poor Scott @ RoM wasn’t happy that I didn’t fully present his side of the argument, so here’s a transcript of an email conversation we had. I’ll let you be the judge…
Scott,
A Liverpool fan has brought it to my attention that your shop is selling “Without killing anyone” T-shirts – I appreciate this is not quite as bad as Munich chants, but it’s a bit rich to moan about Spirit of Shankly, no?
Ollie
No it’s not a bit rich.
After Heysel, the Liverpool chairman, John Smith, claimed it was Chelsea fans who had caused the problems which lead to the 39 deaths, not the Liverpool fans. This was an attitude the club adopted until 2005 when they finally said sorry. The Juve fans turned their backs, whistled, and stuck their fingers up at the Liverpool fans. They had been waiting 20 years for Liverpool to accept the blame (just like Liverpool fans have been waiting 20 years for South Yorkshire Police) for the deaths of the Juve fans.So when we sing about Heysel, we’re obviously not mocking the Juve fans who died. We’re not taking the piss out of them or laughing at them or using the hurt Liverpool fans feel about a loss of their own to upset them, we’re simply confronting them with the truth, a truth they denied for 20 years and still largely like to distance themselves from.
I accept all of that – but you don’t address the T-shirt I mentioned. People in glass houses and other clichés…Do you not accept that United and Liverpool fans are both as bad as each other, and that while chanting about Munich is in the worst taste, selling a T-shirt that proudly claims “Without killing anyone” is also in very bad taste?
Not trying to pick a fight here, just interested to hear your take.
What do I mean I don’t address the t-shirt? The t-shirt is bearing the words of the song we sing about Heysel. Some might say singing about Heysel is in bad taste, but I personally don’t have a problem with it. I’m sure Juve wouldn’t have a problem with it either, as they would likely welcome any recognition given to the fact Liverpool fans were behind the deaths of Juve fans. Hillsborough happened four years later and Juve fans celebrated it, they claimed God existed because of it, so angry and upset were they that Liverpool fans had done this and failed to acknowledge it… just like the South Yorkshire police failed to acknowledge their wrong-doings at Hillsborough. So, to sing about Hillsborough and Munich is sick, because you are making fun of innocent people who died. Nobody is being made fun of when we talk about Heysel, we’re simply making Liverpool face what their fans did, after they spent 20 years denying it.
I would agree that Liverpool and United fans are as bad as each other. Go on YouTube and google the words to the Munich and Hillsborough songs. I don’t post up every link to every fan that sings about Munich because you can dismiss it as a mindless idiot.The point is, this wasn’t just some mindless idiot at a pub. This was a mindless idiot at an SOS party with SOS members. The SOS have been used as the voice of Liverpool fans, a Liverpool FC representative, in all of the papers this week in relation to the Yanks. And now the voice of Liverpool does nothing to stop the Munich song.
so let me get this clear:you think it’s OK to sing about Heysel and sell tasteless merchandise alluding to that tragedy.but you think it’s NOT OK for Liverpool fans to sing about the Munich tragedy.??Don’t you see how that might look to neutral fans?!
Get it clear:
I think it’s alright to remind Liverpool of the deaths they caused and make their wrong-doings acknowledged, the same way they want the wrong-doings of the South Yorkshire police acknowledged, given that Liverpool FC passed the buck on Heysel for 20 years (and it was before their public apology that the chant started – back when Liverpool FC had never acknowledged that they had been in the wrong).Don’t forget Liverpool fans now refer to themselves as ‘murderers’. (http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/09/the-final-word.html#comments) When United fans start calling themselves Munichs, you can compare the two. As it is, the differences between the two incidents and the feelings of the fans towards them are vast, so there’s no way we would EVER make light of Munich, because it is our tragedy. Heysel isn’t Liverpool’s, it’s Juve’s.It’s not alright for Liverpool fans to sing about Munich and it is not alright for United fans to sing about Hillsborough. Those songs are mocking the dead, taunting fans over their hurt and loss.We’re not mocking the dead with Heysel, we’re confronting Liverpool with their rotten past, after they, and this country, worked so hard at sweeping it under the carpet. Had Liverpool FC acknowledged what they’d done from the start there would be no need for us to draw attention over the deaths they caused. It is entirely incomparable with the sick Munich and Hillsborough songs.
Scott, I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and have happily promoted your site on Pies, but it’s fairly clear that you’re:a) a one-eyed hypocrite (like the majority of self-anointed “real” football fans) b) deluded: just how is dragging up Heysel at every given opportunity “alright’? Your argument is bollocks, frankly, and that’s regardless of who’s to blame more for past tragedies (it’s not a competition). Liverpool FC and the fans have apologised for Heysel, so how about you let it go – be the bigger man.Personally, I find it extremely crass that you’d sell T-shirts bearing the message “Without Killing Anyone”, just as I would if a Liverpool site sold “We Never Crashed” T-shirts. But that’s just me – I’m too sensitive to be a “proper” footy fan, clearly.
I don’t drag up Heysel at every given opportunity. Without killing anyone is a chant sung at OT, has been for years (during the period when they failed to acknowledge they were behind the deaths) and it is still sung today, particularly since winning our third European Cup. It is a song for the celebration of what we’ve achieved more than anything to do with Liverpool.
Again, I find it sick that people compare mocking the deaths of innocent people, like your example does, to making Liverpool fans stand up and be counted for what they did wrong after denying it for 20 years. The fact that they call THEMSELVES murderers these days is testament to that. Which fans do you think get tickets for the away Merseyside derby? The glory hunting fair weather fans or the loyal season ticket holders who watch their team home and away? They can take the piss out of Heysel by calling themselves murderers if they want to, just as we can point the blame in their direction. It’s Juve’s tragedy and I’m fairly sure they’d like the blame to be pointed in the right direction too, after they were denied that for so long.
Regardless, it’s nothing to do with being a ‘proper’ fan or not. People CAN have a difference of opinion without getting bitchy and childish.Self-anointed “real” football fans? Christ, get a grip will you. I give my opinion on United but I am not the voice of United fans, as SoS claim to be for Liverpool.
But Liverpool apologised for Heysel (yes, I know it was a bit late) – let it go! It does you no favours to occupy the low ground, when you’re clearly an intelligent and passionate fan. Because it just makes normal, reasonable people think: they’re both as bad as each other. When it’s clear you think you’re better than Liverpool.I have a grip, believe me. I know you might find it difficult to believe that I’m not getting hysterical about this (the default position for Utd and Pool fans), but that’s not the way I roll: I love football, passionately, but I’d like to think I can be reasonable too. So Without Killing Anyone has been sung for years, eh? How is that an excuse for capitalising on it!? Answer: it’s not. Just because it’s an old chant, doesn’t make it alright. That argument is piss weak.I know that black humour is an important part of British football, but this goes beyond that. Just my opinion though. I respect yours.
I’m not asking for favours. I’m simply selling a shirt (at no profit) for a chant which is sung in our ground and has been for years which celebrates how many European Cups we’ve won. If people want to buy it and I have no moral disagreement with it (like I do Hillsborough songs) then it goes in the shop.
And essentially, it is up to me what I think and believe and do. I don’t see anything wrong with confronting Liverpool fans with what they did and denied for 20 years. You do and that’s fine. But is the talk of ‘proper’ and ‘real’ football fans anything other than petty? When football discussions become personal that’s where I draw the line.
We agree to disagree. End of story. Ta ra now.
I’ll walk away too. No hard feelings, certainly.
You’ll walk away….. then publicly slag me off on your website?
Tosser.
Jesus, why the feck do you lot have to be so fecking touchy!? (By “you lot”, I mean Utd AND Liverpool fans, just in case – heaven forbid! – you thought I was being biased)How did I slag you off?? Do please quote me…I thought I was pretty reasonable.
You said you were going to walk away and leave it at that. Had you presented my side of the argument, which I went to great lengths to explain to you, then that would be fair enough. It’s not just that Liverpool didn’t acknowledge Heysel, they blamed the bloody thing on someone else, and that chant is confronting them with what they denied doing for 20 years! What a waste of my afternoon explaining that to you.Don’t send me any of your links in the future. Cheers.
You’re officially a cunt. Get a fucking life, cunt.Followed swiftly by…Jesus, you self-righteous fans do my fucking nut in – maybe if it wasn’t for people like you, I could enjoy football.
Finally, from Scott:Ha ha. The words ‘dummy’ and ‘pram’ come to mind.There’s a few hours of my life I won’t get back, christ.All good fooling, eh! I’ll continue to link to RoM if there’s good stuff on there, and won’t lose too much sleep if Scott never links to Pies again. But as I said earlier, I wish some football fans weren’t so bloody defensive/self-righteous.”
( “We ate all the pies” )
